| Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 06:55 pm |
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grumpyoldman
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Say What wrote: F-35 recording deafens Val-P meeting
Kimberly White 2009-05-11 21:36:58
VALPARAISO - Residents cringed and plugged their ears as the sounds of fighter jets screamed, the shrieks so piercing that they may as well have been flying directly overhead - instead of coming out of loudspeakers.
Valparaiso resident Bob Webb, an audio professional, recorded the sounds of the fighter jets on April 22 and 23, then downloaded them onto his laptop. Afterward, he compared and contrasted the noise levels created by an F-15, F-16 and the controversial F-35, which were played during Monday evening's Valparaiso City Council meeting.
The demonstrative, 45-second sound clip was part of a nearly hour-long presentation Webb gave to an audience of about 50. Webb spent more than 30 years working at Eglin Air Force Base in a variety of capacities, from installing audio equipment in aircraft to developing instruments.
Webb explained that he parked his audio-equipped van at the runway and digitally recorded the sound of the F-35s at the approach end of runway 12. After turning on the recording equipment, he left the van and measured the decibels manually using a calibrated meter.
"I got there early and son of a gun, just before the (F-35) landed, a flight of three F-15s landed, so I got to record them on the same recording as I got the (F-35)," he said. He later recorded six noise-level measurements of F-16s over the two-day period.
Webb compiled the data and determined that the noise level created by a landing F-35 measures at 105-106 dB compared with the F-16's 90 dB and F-15's 91 dB. According to his estimates, the average person would find the new fighter jet to be two to three times louder than the F-16.
Webb said his estimates are in direct contrast with Air Force assertions that the F-35s are no noisier than the present fighter aircraft. During those two days, Webb said, the Air Force gave a watered-down version of the noise level Valparaiso residents could expect from the F-35s, in part because they were not fully loaded and equipped at the time or because the thrust engine was at a lower power.
Exposure to that kind of noise, he said, is not only annoying but will drag down real estate prices, make it harder for residents to refinance their homes, and could easily cause irreversible hearing damage.
"We're gonna have a lot of people in their mid-20s with hearing aids," he warned. "Once you kill the cilia in the ear, they don't grow back."
Webb also warned that while people think the F-35 noise is a Valparaiso issue, it will also affect parts of Niceville, Shalimar and Destin.
This will happen here if people do not act before officials allow this!
Let's go back to the issue of proximity. People do not live at the end of the runway - they live some distance from it. So, recording noise at that point is NOT equal to what people hear. Also, keep in mind that decibels are NOT a compound measurement of sound. That is, a 10 decibel increase is NOT the same as doubling the noise level. So, projections of '2-6 times louder' are false. It's the same arguement that's been made at the meeting in Sun City put on by the El Mirage mayor, and it's equally false.
The only empirical data we have on the noise level at the nominal approach altitudes and distances is from the Air Force. You can question the impartiality of that data, but it showed that the F-35 was only 1-3 decibels louder than an F-16 with the Pratt & Whitney engines. The Air Force will run some more meaningful tests over the next two years as it goes through the Environmental Impact Statement process. That won't start until mid-2011 (12+ months from now) IF the current schedule holds up. Remember also that there are only about six F-35's flying, they are in Florida, they are not due at the second basing until the middle of this decade, and the schedule is slipping. So, we have time to figure this out and the Air Force has time to do something about it if necessary.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 02:10 am |
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No Report Needed
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Time will tell! Wait and see what the jet, if they ever get it right, to fly into Luke.
I think this jet is not an improvement over the F 16!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 01:30 am |
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rfolland
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When I first moved to SCW a few years back, I was well aware of the proximity of Luke AFB. Then, a while later, they changed the flight pattern due to encroaching development and now I get to enjoy the noise. If the F-35 is as noisy as is claimed, maybe they should be located at a remote site. It's really not a pressing issue at present because due to budget constraints and the cost per aircraft, as of today, they are being delayed until 2015. I am retired military and Luke really doesn't matter to me... I only go there every few years to renew my wife's dependent ID card.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 01:10 am |
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doggielover
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rfholland has proven himself to be an agitator, therefore, pay no attention to him.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 12:25 am |
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Say What
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Luke is a training base and that means multiple take-offs and landings. That means noise from after burners and thrust taking off. We are not "over water" but landing and taking off over large population areas that have been developed legally over 30 plus years. The city and county officials welcomed the increased revenues from these homeowners.
Now these officials want our tax money and the base too. Did they forget they opened their coffers to developers and future taxpayers?
Am I missing something?
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| Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 12:15 am |
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SunCityWestBill
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I would imagine the planes come in over Choctawhatchee Bay in Florida into the Base, I would think only the fish might complain. Here in Tampa where the tankers are based at MacDill, most of the takeoffs and landings are over the gulf.
I agree in security and safety, but it would also appear other areas might be considered. To be secure and safe does not mean the planes just have to at Luke.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 12:10 am |
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Say What
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If there isn't an issue with noise from the F 35, then why do they now fly them in for 30 days and let us hear?
What are the supporters afraid of?
Is this just laying the ground work for forcing this expensive jet down our throats?
We are citizens and deserve honesty!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 12:02 am |
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camden
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PORA has a right to take a position on public issues. If the position was a negative one concerning the F-35 I bet you wouldn't be complaining.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 26th, 2010 05:25 pm |
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SunCityWestBill
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I saw this in the latest, February 26, 2010, issue of the PORA newsletter, which I receive online.
I was surprised PORA has taken a position, as I would have thought, as a representative organization of all property owners, they would maintain a neutral position.
"The Air Force will be hosting five public scoping meetings from February 22 to 26 as part of its Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) process for basing the new F-35 at Luke Air Force Base. This is your opportunity to send a clear message that Arizona supports the F-35 mission at Luke! Click [url=http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=3477799&msgid=183919&act=3T32&c=588568&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fhttp://www.porascw.org%2Flukescoping.html]here[/url] for the locations of the meetings and how you can still comment is case you can't attend a meeting"
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Say What
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F-35 recording deafens Val-P meeting
Kimberly White 2009-05-11 21:36:58
VALPARAISO - Residents cringed and plugged their ears as the sounds of fighter jets screamed, the shrieks so piercing that they may as well have been flying directly overhead - instead of coming out of loudspeakers.
Valparaiso resident Bob Webb, an audio professional, recorded the sounds of the fighter jets on April 22 and 23, then downloaded them onto his laptop. Afterward, he compared and contrasted the noise levels created by an F-15, F-16 and the controversial F-35, which were played during Monday evening's Valparaiso City Council meeting.
The demonstrative, 45-second sound clip was part of a nearly hour-long presentation Webb gave to an audience of about 50. Webb spent more than 30 years working at Eglin Air Force Base in a variety of capacities, from installing audio equipment in aircraft to developing instruments.
Webb explained that he parked his audio-equipped van at the runway and digitally recorded the sound of the F-35s at the approach end of runway 12. After turning on the recording equipment, he left the van and measured the decibels manually using a calibrated meter.
"I got there early and son of a gun, just before the (F-35) landed, a flight of three F-15s landed, so I got to record them on the same recording as I got the (F-35)," he said. He later recorded six noise-level measurements of F-16s over the two-day period.
Webb compiled the data and determined that the noise level created by a landing F-35 measures at 105-106 dB compared with the F-16's 90 dB and F-15's 91 dB. According to his estimates, the average person would find the new fighter jet to be two to three times louder than the F-16.
Webb said his estimates are in direct contrast with Air Force assertions that the F-35s are no noisier than the present fighter aircraft. During those two days, Webb said, the Air Force gave a watered-down version of the noise level Valparaiso residents could expect from the F-35s, in part because they were not fully loaded and equipped at the time or because the thrust engine was at a lower power.
Exposure to that kind of noise, he said, is not only annoying but will drag down real estate prices, make it harder for residents to refinance their homes, and could easily cause irreversible hearing damage.
"We're gonna have a lot of people in their mid-20s with hearing aids," he warned. "Once you kill the cilia in the ear, they don't grow back."
Webb also warned that while people think the F-35 noise is a Valparaiso issue, it will also affect parts of Niceville, Shalimar and Destin.
This will happen here if people do not act before officials allow this!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22nd, 2010 10:22 pm |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22nd, 2010 08:45 pm |
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camden
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When you purchased your home, didn't you realize you were near an airbase and within a military fly zone. If so, then what are you complaining about!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22nd, 2010 12:43 am |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22nd, 2010 12:11 am |
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Manatee
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The cost of government sticks in my gizzard.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 12:42 pm |
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the PAINT-IT! GUY
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Aren't there other, better or worse things to complain about than noise? How about the price of steak these days? Or home heating costs, or insurance rates? And how about them knee replacements?? Sometimes you just have to factor it in as the cost of... LIVING.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 04:25 am |
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rfolland
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Say What: To quote the late John Denver, "Farm Out, Outa State, Gravy, Gravy". Noise is still noise.
Isn't it a bit odd that although some denizens of SCW want a peaceful, serene environment, somehow or other jet noise is an integral part of the ambiance? I lived and worked around it for years and don't miss it one small bit. Maybe if we could switch to silent flying saucers..... I know the tinfoil hat crowd would enjoy it.
Last edited on Thu Jan 21st, 2010 04:33 am by rfolland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 04:18 am |
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Say What
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Sound of freedom is still noise to me and others! The sound of freedom is big business.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 04:07 am |
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rfolland
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Camden, You've got it all wrong. I am neither a wild-eyed liberal nor a knee-jerk yahoo conservative. I am a rational human being who thinks rather than get his opinions from media flunkies, which is more than could be said for some folks. If you were capable of unmuddied thought, you'd realize that most folks are somewhere in the middle. By the way, if you are so enamored of jet noise, why don't you buy a house off of the end of a runway?
Last edited on Thu Jan 21st, 2010 04:16 am by rfolland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 03:47 am |
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camden
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You sound like a grumpy old liberal. You should move to Massachusetts with the rest of them. Oh yah! I forgot about Tuesday's election. All of them are leaving the state. Looks like your stuck here. Buy some ear plugs and enjoy the sound of freedom!
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rfolland
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Last edited on Sun Jan 10th, 2010 12:41 pm by rfolland
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Say What
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Who are you going to attack? Jets are old school!
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rfolland
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Last edited on Sun Jan 10th, 2010 12:42 pm by rfolland
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the PAINT-IT! GUY
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Maybe the quiet whir of a Prius makes you feel better/safer? Maybe if another country attacks our water or utility supply, leaving us stuck out here in the desert without life sustaining connections we can just yell at them?? Moving near a Military base has it's drawbacks. I can still remember signing that paper that drew my attention to the fact that Luke was nearby. It's not really a problem for me. Truly.
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SunCityWestBill
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" And you're "here", because...?"
I want to be and everyone has to be somewhere.
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Say What
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Somehow I do not equate jet noise or the increase of noise related to safety. With terrorists, both home grown and foreign, jets will not protect us.
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the PAINT-IT! GUY
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Actually, quite the opposite. I find our Country to be among the safest, likely due in part to Military participation. I would trade jet noise and the security of knowing they're operating on our behalf to living someplace like Russia or China at present. It's a minor inconvenience, IMO. Some things in life are less pleasant than others. It's the difference between paying too much for coffee and not having any in your cupboard. I'm not fond of the noises that bombard us, but it's a far cry from what's happening to Citizens living elsewhere. I'm just thankful to experience the feeling of safety and security and not concentrating on the inconvenience of the noise. Sorry if I left you with the thought I was "unpartriotic". A leap!
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Say What
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Nothing like the smell of jet fuel, exhaust, and noise. Think of the tax $$$$'s being spent!
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rfolland
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Last edited on Sun Jan 10th, 2010 12:42 pm by rfolland
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Say What
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You got it! 
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rfolland
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I just read a posting that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Am I wrong, did I misunderstand, or does PAINT-IT! GUY equate not wanting to live with jet noise with being unpatriotic and anti-American?
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Say What
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Nope! I am staying right here and opposing additional jet noise!
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Say What
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Not because of Luke's jets! Time for a change!
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Say What
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Read the AZ. REPUBLIC today, the West Valley section regarding F35 noise.
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SunCityWestBill
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Boeing has announced a new fighter aircraft which they feel will be more environmentally friendly for the residents of Sun City West, AZ.
Last edited on Fri Jan 8th, 2010 01:58 pm by SunCityWestBill
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grumpyoldman
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I use the anaogy of 'Chicken Little' to point out to you that:
We don't have all the facts about the F-35 in operation because there are four aircraft flying, and they are not production models. Whatever the experience is today with those aircraft, it will be different in the future.
The aircraft flying are doing so at another base where the conditions are different,
A major study have been done that dispute your assertion that the noise from these test aircraft is '2 to 6 times louder' than current aircraft. Here is the URL for the study that was the subject of the Aviation Week Magazine article in 2009 that I've referred to: http://www.sluf.org/misc_pages/edwardsnoiseresults7april09.pdf. This is the study that the Air Force uses as a baseline. It makes very interesting reading, because it presents the findings as compared to several jets. I hope you take time to read it, but I doubt it will affect your views.
IF Luke is selected as a second training facility, the first F-35's won't arrive there until at least four and probably six years from now. They won't arrive in quantity for at least two years after that. Whatever the F-35 noise level is now, it will be different then.
So, your comments are equivalent to 'the sky is falling' because you're worried about something that's not definite, and is uncertain in the future. Sure, we as citizens should be concerned for our families and ourselves as we continue to live near a base, and the Air Force is concerned as well (bring up the Luke AFB site and read about their side of 'noise'). Our situation isn't that much different from those who live near ANY airport. But there is a time and place to raise those concerns - and this is not the time, nor the place.
I don't trust politicians any more than you appear to. But this discussion isn't about politics. It's about noise.
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Say What
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Who are you to tell me and others to "stop swaking"?
You want us to trust you and the flag waving politicians that say bring them here and save our base. If the F35 is too noisy, just shut your door and windows or turn off your hearing aids. Don't worry about long term hearing loss for your children.
There are many times when the "Chicken Little's" have been correct in predictions.
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grumpyoldman
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I've just been advised that there is more news concerning the F-35 timeline.
The Pentagon has started to change the program again. It appears now that Eglin's development aircraft deliveries are going to be pushed out into 2012, and the production versions beyond that into 2014. The second base won't get their aircraft until well after the middle of the decade. Here's the article:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/JSF121409.xml
It looks like we won't have to worry about deployment for another five to seven years. Just settle back in your chair and listen to the sounds we have now - and recalibrate your hearing aid.
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grumpyoldman
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Sigh! You're clutching at straws now.
The article discusses the June, 2008 testing results released October, 2008, against an F-15, not an F-16.
The March, 2009 article in Aviation Week Magazine shows later test results against the noise from F-16's. It's more current, and if you believe that the Air Force has done something to mitigate the noise level, as it said it was doing in October, 2008, then they're making progress.
I still have a problem with your insistence that the fighters to be delivered four years from now will be as noisy as the pre-production prototypes measured under different conditions over 18 months ago - against a different baseline. If there is anything to it, the lawsuit filed in Florida will be instrumental in affecting how the Air Force deploys these aircraft.
Bottom line: stop swaking, Chicken Little.
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grumpyoldman
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Yes we will - and not until then. In the meantime, you've made your point and I've made mine. Unless you have more facts to add, that should do it, don't you think?
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Say What
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We will see when they fly in and the public can judge. People will complain! It will not be only from those with hearing aids. Perhaps those that have to wear an aid have to because of jet noise.
Studies show hearing loss from prolonged exposure to high decibels.
Wait till the public is exposed to this increased jet noise!
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grumpyoldman
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Whoa there, big fella!
You're right - no bases last forever. But they die when requirements change, not because they're killed by people with sensitive hearing aids. A loud outpouring from ALL of the areas around the base will have an impact, but I don't hear that from any other area but the City of El Mirage. That point says a lot.
Next, 'louder' is still a relative term. I asked you to cite some references that support your assertion that the F-35 is '2 to 6 times' as noisy as an F-16. If you can't, then it's just your opinion - and that's that.
Remember that the F-22 is NOT an Air Force bird, and it would not be based at Luke. One might drop by for a visit, as the one did in December. Other very loud birds visit from time to time, such as the KC-35 tankers (converted 707's without hush kits on their engines), an occasional B-52 (a screecher if I've ever heard one), KC-10's and new aircraft like the V-22 Osprey.
And your statement 'noise has to escalate every 10 years' is interesting. They're not designing the engines of jets to be noisier in part because the countries they fly against have sensitive electronic devices that can detect the noise. I'm inclined to believe that your hearing is ten years older also - and that might just account for the differences you perceive.
I won't convince you that the F-35 isn't going to be any noiser than an F-16 - which you've gotten used to. There are only four of them flying right now, and if you REALLY want to experience their 'noise' first hand, Southwest Airlines flies to an airport near Eglin. Take some recording devices with you and come back and tell us what those instruments say. But make SURE you record the 'A' model only. Eglin's testing the 'B' model also, and that one's the Marine's version.
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Say What
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Not all bases last forever!
Secondly, why does the noise have to escalate every 10 years? With the F22's and F35's it will become much, much worse. Times change and perhaps the base should close as others have around the country.
Last edited on Wed Jan 6th, 2010 04:34 pm by Say What
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Manatee
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The base has been there since 1940, I am not very sympathetic to squawks about noise.
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Say What
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Another brilliant comment! Are you waving your flag?
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Manatee
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Sounds like NIMBY to me.
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Say What
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Don't you think we should think about the future of the northwest valley? Bringing in louder and more polluting jets makes little sense in the long term. Telling people to move is dumb! Would you tell someone to move it their neighbor had loud parties every day?
The politicians are waving their collective flags but the average citizen gets very little benefit, if any, except additional noise and pollution!
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