| Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 01:54 pm |
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CSI_QueenCreek
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LAborn wrote: I can't believe anyone wants to live in the country like a bunch of hermits. I for one can't wait until we incorporate and get a freeway through San Tan Valley. With a freeway comes stores and we all like stores. Come into the 21st centry people. Anyone who doesn't want to incorporate must be hiding something and they don't want to get caught. I don't care what incorporation costs, if it will bring life to this baren wasteland.
Typical of LA mentality. Move to someplace and then want to change it to fit their own personal needs. The people around here were doing just fine and living the life of their choice until a bunch of you saw $80k homes and want everything for nothing. Go Back!
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| Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 05:21 am |
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LAborn
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I can't believe anyone wants to live in the country like a bunch of hermits. I for one can't wait until we incorporate and get a freeway through San Tan Valley. With a freeway comes stores and we all like stores. Come into the 21st centry people. Anyone who doesn't want to incorporate must be hiding something and they don't want to get caught. I don't care what incorporation costs, if it will bring life to this baren wasteland.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 9th, 2010 01:47 am |
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pipeman
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internetbountyhunter wrote: This community was established because of the cooperation by the county, they have decided on it's structure, Fire, Sheriff, Etc. And being a city we will decide on the direction we go. We will not have outside influences telling us the way things will go, nor will we have to suffer because of the lack of leadership from the county (I am referring to our past supervisor). A city government is "For the people, by the people".
I would like to give a little knowledge of how structure works as far as Government structure.
1. Federal 2. State 3. County 4. Incorporated City 5. HOA's (Note:if you live in one)
The people that live here, pay #1, #2, #3 and #5 (see note) in taxes and Etc. If we incorporate our responsibility then changes and you end up paying #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5 (see note). What does all the "numbers" want more of it's called money, in taxes or fee's. The million dollar question is "how much more burden will it put on the local people?" The budget was posted. The million dollar question was answered................$15 a month.
Note: I am in now way supporting how Pinal County works, it does need improvement. Whether we Incorporate or not, the County will still get their money. Thinking other wise is foolish. I have not seen one post where any suggested that we would get any money back from the county other than a post from me on another site where I stated that we pay XXXX $ in taxes for a library. That money is specified for books and computers. A library is included in the budget and the county will be returning the money collected for libraries back to STV in the amount of approx: $3 million
We have several government bodies ( called Home Owners Association's) HOA's are given governmental rights by the State and County, in San Tan Valley, how did they react to the economy? They raised HOA fee's, San Tan Valley area is verily new. First and foremost, HOA's do not have the rights as you claim they do. In all reality the state of AZ took many of those right away due to their abuse on citizens. You must remember that HOA's collect fees for their community only and it is not shared across the board as city taxes, sales taxes, etc.. would be. So you are comapring apples to oranges in your scenerio.
Here is a simple note: An investigation found that Mr. Johnson drilled water wells before he built up this area, he created structure. What is it you are trying to say here?
At the moment the County has the hardship of supporting this area, if San Tan Valley goes solo, the people here will then be solely responsible for keeping the Government going. A city will always be able to provide for its citizens better than a county can. You muist remember that we are a slice of the pie the county has to take care of. Sure we are 80,000, but this county has over 300,000 residents.
"I noticed a comment made about Queen Creek not having a fire dept, or Police. So I guess when fire started everything burnt down, I guess when a crime was committed nothing happened. In 1989 they Incorporated and had nothing, sorry that posters statement is incorrect, The Maricopa County or Pinal County, provided Law Enforcement and Fire service's the county does not provide fire service. That was contracted through rural metro at the home owners expense. and public safety, they approved building codes and maintained roads. Queen Creek, stepped into already having a structure." The same goes with STV. The county has provided police protection, P&Z, maintained roads, improved roads. We will reap the same benefits that TOQC and or any other area that incorprated. We are starting out with a blank slate. We will not have all the overhead an existing city/town has. We will be starting out with the basics (plus a little more). A city government does not have to be big to be successful.
Here is a question for everyone: What came first the Queen Creek Post Office or Queen Creek Incorporation?
This forum gives a little taste of what would happen if we tried to decide on how to proceed. This forum thus far has showed nothing but the benefits of proceeding forward.
We see it everyday, about State money short falls, Cities laying off, Police and Fire forces being reduced. However, the County still has to support any City in public protection whether the City can afford it or not and the State has to support the County problems.
I appreciate you allowing me to comment, however this will be my last post.
Show me the mission statement ( not just saying Incorporate), lets see the home work done on this project written on paper. Once that has been accomplished then dialog on this subject will become fruitful. Also I would really like to see written down regarding what is meant by saying "the direction we want to go in" what direction is that and please do not just say Incorporate?
Good luck to everyone in your qwest.
God Bless
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| Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 05:51 pm |
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14freedom
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STV-Voter wrote: internetbountyhunter wrote: I appreciate you allowing me to comment, however this will be my last post.
Please stay engaged. Your questions are valid and your opinion matters.
I'm pro-incorporation because I genuinely believe that a lean, local government is the best mechanism for directing our future. I appreciate your desire to see a vision for that future rather than just the "incorporate now" drum beat. However, I contend that the drive to incorporate is precisely because doing so will enable and empower the community to successfully self-determine their future.
What is important to me?
1. Improved services - e.g., public safety, hospitals.
2. Improved roads and infrastructure.
3. Economic development - bring more industry here to drive head-of-household job creation, creating an independent city as opposed to a bedroom community.
4. Libraries and Parks - a place for my children and grandchildren to enjoy and thrive.
5. A vision for managed growth that preserves the quasi-rural lifestyle where possible, with open-space protection, low ambient light ordinances, a focus on sustainable industry, cooperation with our neighboring cities and the county, more entertainment options close to home. Some of these goals may seem opposing, but that is my point. Together, organized as a city, we can all contribute to the vision of the future and best compromise to address differing viewpoints.
I could not agree more STV Voter All opinions and arguments matter. If a vision statement or a mission statement is great idea. I think we probably have thousands.
Here is one. To provide an environment of integrity,innovation, efficiency and transparency in local government for the continued prosperity, opportunity and quality of life for the citizens of San Tan Valley.
I am curious as to what your mission statement would say I B Hunter? I am sincere in this question? It matters. But right now you don't have any say in what happens here ,other than to lobby the board of supervisors.. I we are citizens of a municipality you will have a voice that counts. A vote, a chance to state your case to members of your own community. I'm just sayin... What is your mission statement?
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| Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 03:23 pm |
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STV-Voter
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internetbountyhunter wrote: I appreciate you allowing me to comment, however this will be my last post.
Please stay engaged. Your questions are valid and your opinion matters.
I'm pro-incorporation because I genuinely believe that a lean, local government is the best mechanism for directing our future. I appreciate your desire to see a vision for that future rather than just the "incorporate now" drum beat. However, I contend that the drive to incorporate is precisely because doing so will enable and empower the community to successfully self-determine their future.
What is important to me?
1. Improved services - e.g., public safety, hospitals.
2. Improved roads and infrastructure.
3. Economic development - bring more industry here to drive head-of-household job creation, creating an independent city as opposed to a bedroom community.
4. Libraries and Parks - a place for my children and grandchildren to enjoy and thrive.
5. A vision for managed growth that preserves the quasi-rural lifestyle where possible, with open-space protection, low ambient light ordinances, a focus on sustainable industry, cooperation with our neighboring cities and the county, more entertainment options close to home. Some of these goals may seem opposing, but that is my point. Together, organized as a city, we can all contribute to the vision of the future and best compromise to address differing viewpoints.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 03:04 pm |
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STV-Voter
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internetbountyhunter
"Here is a simple note: An investigation found that Mr. Johnson drilled water wells before he built up this area, he created structure."
This is true and Mr. Johnson should not be unfairly vilified nor should his part in establishing this area be dismissed.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 02:55 pm |
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internetbountyhunter
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This community was established because of the cooperation by the county, they have decided on it's structure, Fire, Sheriff, Etc.
I would like to give a little knowledge of how structure works as far as Government structure.
1. Federal 2. State 3. County 4. Incorporated City 5. HOA's (Note:if you live in one)
The people that live here, pay #1, #2, #3 and #5 (see note) in taxes and Etc. If we incorporate our responsibility then changes and you end up paying #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5 (see note). What does all the "numbers" want more of it's called money, in taxes or fee's. The million dollar question is "how much more burden will it put on the local people?"
Note: I am in now way supporting how Pinal County works, it does need improvement. Whether we Incorporate or not, the County will still get their money. Thinking other wise is foolish.
We have several government bodies ( called Home Owners Association's) HOA's are given governmental rights by the State and County, in San Tan Valley, how did they react to the economy? They raised HOA fee's, San Tan Valley area is verily new.
Here is a simple note: An investigation found that Mr. Johnson drilled water wells before he built up this area, he created structure.
At the moment the County has the hardship of supporting this area, if San Tan Valley goes solo, the people here will then be solely responsible for keeping the Government going.
"I noticed a comment made about Queen Creek not having a fire dept, or Police. So I guess when fire started everything burnt down, I guess when a crime was committed nothing happened. In 1989 they Incorporated and had nothing, sorry that posters statement is incorrect, The Maricopa County or Pinal County, provided Law Enforcement and Fire service's and public safety, they approved building codes and maintained roads. Queen Creek, stepped into already having a structure."
Here is a question for everyone: What came first the Queen Creek Post Office or Queen Creek Incorporation?
This forum gives a little taste of what would happen if we tried to decide on how to proceed.
We see it everyday, about State money short falls, Cities laying off, Police and Fire forces being reduced. However, the County still has to support any City in public protection whether the City can afford it or not and the State has to support the County problems.
I appreciate you allowing me to comment, however this will be my last post.
Show me the mission statement ( not just saying Incorporate), lets see the home work done on this project written on paper. Once that has been accomplished then dialog on this subject will become fruitful. Also I would really like to see written down regarding what is meant by saying "the direction we want to go in" what direction is that and please do not just say Incorporate?
Good luck to everyone in your qwest.
God Bless
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| Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 01:58 pm |
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STV-Voter
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Miatake said: "It's cheaper to have county resources then to contract for the county resources. So what do you really get if we incorporate more taxes and less services".
This is not true. Consider, for example, the proposal to contract the Police services to the PCSO. The PCSO already has much of the operational overhead in-place (Human Resources, Offices, sub-stations, Command Center, Grant Administrator, etc.) Some of these are sunk costs that wouldn't increase by taking on additional contracts with municipalities in the County. Other costs may increase; say by hiring more officers to accommodate the municipalities’ desires. A contract could include language to require a higher level of service. If you look at the proposed budget, which is posted on the Pinal County website for the public to see and review, there's ~$12M allocated to Public Safety. Note that this budget assumes 75 officers - a 30% increase relative to what we currently have to cover San Tan Valley.
So, will we pay more in taxes? Yes, a bit. Will our services decrease? Quite to the contrary, they will improve.
An alternative to incorporation is to do nothing. Do nothing and let the county take care of us. We will become a county island, surrounded by other cities. As Pinal County grows in population, the quantity and quality of services to us will become diluted and will likely diminish.
What is the value of self-determination, locally accountable leadership, and improved services? Are you unwilling to pay another $1 per day to control your future? Do you doubt the truth of the posted budget? Why? Let's hear specifically, by line-item where you disagree.
Last edited on Sun Feb 7th, 2010 02:42 pm by STV-Voter
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| Posted: Sun Feb 7th, 2010 01:51 pm |
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Carefree
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14freedom wrote:
You know, when I moved out of my mothers house it did cost more money. When I got married it also cost more money,when I had children it cost more money, It is called growing up,maturing, developing. You would actually base a decision about your self determination based soley on money? Really? Would'nt it be cheeper to live with another family member. How about living on the street. That is an excellent way to save money. No house payment,water bill. I don't want to live like that. I don't want the future development of this COMMUNITY to be decided by the county, They can't make the kinds of decisions that shape a community. If money is your ONLY argument against incorporation, if self determination,self governing,local advocacy,local accountability mean nothing to you except how much will it cost then you probably would have sided with the British 240 or so years ago. Let the King take care of you. I would rather take resposibility for my self. But that's just me. If you want to give up your rights by law to self govern because of a few bucks ok. I will respect your right to choose. Think deeply though. Look far into the future and think about how you see our area 30 years from now. 10 years from now. Study and research things alittle bit. Look at history, did you ever wonder why anyone would develope and city or town? Why would anyone do that ever? Ask yourself that. Maybe there is a very good reason. I will say that your participation in the discussion shows you really do care. I'm with you!
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14freedom
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You know, when I moved out of my mothers house it did cost more money. When I got married it also cost more money,when I had children it cost more money, It is called growing up,maturing, developing. You would actually base a decision about your self determination based soley on money? Really? Would'nt it be cheeper to live with another family member. How about living on the street. That is an excellent way to save money. No house payment,water bill. I don't want to live like that. I don't want the future development of this COMMUNITY to be decided by the county, They can't make the kinds of decisions that shape a community. If money is your ONLY argument against incorporation, if self determination,self governing,local advocacy,local accountability mean nothing to you except how much will it cost then you probably would have sided with the British 240 or so years ago. Let the King take care of you. I would rather take resposibility for my self. But that's just me. If you want to give up your rights by law to self govern because of a few bucks ok. I will respect your right to choose. Think deeply though. Look far into the future and think about how you see our area 30 years from now. 10 years from now. Study and research things alittle bit. Look at history, did you ever wonder why anyone would develope and city or town? Why would anyone do that ever? Ask yourself that. Maybe there is a very good reason. I will say that your participation in the discussion shows you really do care.
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MiaTake
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internetbountyhunter wrote: I guess did the chicken or the egg come first.
When I spoke with the Post Office in Queen Creek about this place called San Tan Valley. Here is what she said " It's does not matter what someone calls themselves, the Zip code is operated out of Queen Creek, Post Office, so the 85143 is a Queen Creek zip code".
You can request a Post Office in this area, it just takes some work.
As for saying it's not true, well history tells a different story.
I always recommend going to the source, start with the U.S. Postmaster "Wahsington DC" not the local workers and get the answers.
Whether you say it's true or not is academic, since part of incorporating is infrastructure ( We have Fire, Sheriff, Utilities, Roads, Housing Population, some commercial and Industrial, but do we have a Post Office???) This is part of the infrastructure and a Post Office is part of that infrastructure.
As you can see, what came first the infrastructure or the egg?
I promise this is the last time I say "infrastructure"
God bless.
The two have nothing to do with each other. The post office decisions are at a federal level and the incorporation is at a local level. Higley has a post office but it is in Gilbert. Sunlakes has a post office but it is in Chandler.
If we incorporate we will begin with more expense for less service and then it goes down hill from there.
Internetbountyhunter does have it right that "It's cheaper to have county resources then to contract for the county resources. So what do you really get if we incorporate, more taxes and less services".
The county wants us off of their books financially because they can then charge us for services we now get for the taxes we pay the county. Do you really think our county taxes will go down if we incorporate?
Last edited on Sun Feb 7th, 2010 03:43 am by MiaTake
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internetbountyhunter
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I guess did the chicken or the egg come first.
When I spoke with the Post Office in Queen Creek about this place called San Tan Valley. Here is what she said " It's does not matter what someone calls themselves, the Zip code is operated out of Queen Creek, Post Office, so the 85143 is a Queen Creek zip code".
You can request a Post Office in this area, it just takes some work.
As for saying it's not true, well history tells a different story.
I always recommend going to the source, start with the U.S. Postmaster "Wahsington DC" not the local workers and get the answers.
Whether you say it's true or not is academic, since part of incorporating is infrastructure ( We have Fire, Sheriff, Utilities, Roads, Housing Population, some commercial and Industrial, but do we have a Post Office???) This is part of the infrastructure and a Post Office is part of that infrastructure.
As you can see, what came first the infrastructure or the egg?
I promise this is the last time I say "infrastructure"
God bless.
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pipeman
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internetbountyhunter wrote: Sorry I forgot to also add this to comment;
The first thing that needs to happen is to establish San Tan Valley, it needs it's own Post Office, this will establish the San Tan Valley.
Not UPS or Mailbox, Etc, but a real live United States Post Office with the Zip code of 85143.
This happens before any town or village or incorporation is established, the good old Post Office establishes it's self and the area. AKA San Tan Valley (Post Office)
Again, God Bless
this is not true. You don't have the brick and mortar post office and then a city follows. It is exactly the opposite. You create the city then petition the USPS for a brick and mortar p.o.
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internetbountyhunter
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Sorry I forgot to also add this to comment;
The first thing that needs to happen is to establish San Tan Valley, it needs it's own Post Office, this will establish the San Tan Valley.
Not UPS or Mailbox, Etc, but a real live United States Post Office with the Zip code of 85143.
This happens before any town or village or incorporation is established, the good old Post Office establishes it's self and the area. AKA San Tan Valley (Post Office)
Again, God Bless
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internetbountyhunter
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This comment may not be popular;
San Tan Valley aka Queen Creek area, does not have enough infrastructure. Home taxes are not enough, you need to create industrial areas, more commercial areas.
One thing that's a joke here is, everyone seems to pay min wage. You can either work out of town, or in Florance prison which pays more then min wage.
This person Mr. Johnson sewer and water is a joke, every time we pass on Ironwood we smell his well defined business concept of sewer management, as for his water, well we all know how that works.
It's cheaper to have county resources then to contract for the county resources.
So what do you really get if we incorporate, more taxes and less services. According to the FBI in 1999 Arizona was on the top 5 list of corrupt Government officials. In 10 years it has not changed that much, as Hawaii was 1st on the list in 1999
Untill the infrastructure changes and the deep pockets of Government officials change . Well I am sure you get the drift of things.
Will until next time, God bless.
Last edited on Sun Feb 7th, 2010 12:50 am by internetbountyhunter
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pipeman
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MiaTake wrote: bobdotson wrote: From the Florence Reminder:
..."-- Should the town of Florence support or oppose the incorporation of San Tan Valley? Why?" ...
http://trivalleycentral.com/articles/2010/02/04/florence_reminder_blade_tribune/top_stories/doc4b69eba304890200010440.txt
Might just get your hackles up!
Why should the people of STV support the incorporation? I've seen the budget. I'm sure it is good for the county to get us off of their books financially and start charging us directly for public safety, library and animal control.
What do we get for our extra $175.00 per year? We get another layor of government where it will only take 4 votes from our newly elected peers to raise sales taxes, raise property taxes, build a 20 million dollar horse facility, buy a water company and double our current high rates to pay for it, start a police department, a fire department, a judicial system, a garbage company where you will be forced to pay more for less service. Oh and my favorite would be the parks and rec department where we could spend millions to build beautiful parks and then millions to maintain them every year while those not living in STV could come and use them for free. Every new home in Queen Creek pays over $5000 in impact fees for park and rec. That's $5000 I would rather spend in my own back yard.
Gilbert has become a new Mesa, Queen Creek has become a new Gilbert. Do we want to become a new Queen Creek and see our $175 per household per year go to the $10,000 - $15,000+ per year for every household like it is now for the incorporated part of Queen Creek.
Oh, you say that we'll be smarter than that . . . not when enough people from Mesa, Gilbert and Queen Creek move to STV to get their people elected and start shoving their lifestyle down our throats. Once we are incorporated, it only takes 4 votes on the city council to totally control your life.
Just Say No. If it doesn't make sense financially for the other municipalities to annex us then why do we think it makes sense to start from scratch? We have self-determination now. Then we will have City Council determination.
Mia, thank you for your input . You said you seen the budget., but I did not see where you stated that you agreed or disagreed with the budget. I challenge you or anyone living within STV borders to find a flaw(s) in the posted budget. It isn't in anyone's interest for the community to move ahead with a bogus budget. I am not just asking for anyone to say (ie.) contracted law enforcement will cost more than that. I am asking for any flaw(s) to be brought to the forefront along with evidence showing where the budget is off.
There are several factors that we must remember when making our minds up about incorporation:
The reality and beauty of a new STV government is that there is no excess. Other cities have grown fat during the good times of the early and mid 2000s. It is impossible to compare STV to those more established areas.
STV has an opportunity to start anew; no debt, no bloated government, no expensive buildings or vehicles. This is a clear demonstration of government not having to be big to be effective.
Do we really want things to stay the way they are forever? Because the county will NEVER be in a position to provide the things a city can.
As far as the parks goes who is to say that we need to build million dollar parks and spend millions to care for them. We need to think outside the box here people. Look at your HOA's and the parks within your communities. Who is to say that we can't team up with HOA's to take over their community parks and maintain them? That would be a win-win for "our" city, a win-win for HOA's since our city would maintain them taking the financials off the HOA's. Sure we may have to spend some to fix some up, add on etc. but that would be much cheaper going this route. Just thinking outside the box here.
We shant look at what other cities have done/ are doing.... we need to focus on what we will do, how will we control growth, control costs, etc... There is NO comparison between STV and any other established city/town. We do not have the overhead they do which in my oppinion puts us in a much better financial situation right from the starting line.
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Juan Cabrillo
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chino wrote: MiaTake wrote: Why should the people of STV support the incorporation? I've seen the budget. I'm sure it is good for the county to get us off of their books financially and start charging us directly for public safety, library and animal control.
What do we get for our extra $175.00 per year? We get another layor of government where it will only take 4 votes from our newly elected peers to raise sales taxes, raise property taxes, build a 20 million dollar horse facility, buy a water company and double our current high rates to pay for it, start a police department, a fire department, a judicial system, a garbage company where you will be forced to pay more for less service. Oh and my favorite would be the parks and rec department where we could spend millions to build beautiful parks and then millions to maintain them every year while those not living in STV could come and use them for free. Every new home in Queen Creek pays over $5000 in impact fees for park and rec. That's $5000 I would rather spend in my own back yard.
Gilbert has become a new Mesa, Queen Creek has become a new Gilbert. Do we want to become a new Queen Creek and see our $175 per household per year go to the $10,000 - $15,000+ per year for every household like it is now for the incorporated part of Queen Creek.
Oh, you say that we'll be smarter than that . . . not when enough people from Mesa, Gilbert and Queen Creek move to STV to get their people elected and start shoving their lifestyle down our throats. Once we are incorporated, it only takes 4 votes on the city council to totally control your life.
Just Say No. If it doesn't make sense financially for the other municipalities to annex us then why do we think it makes sense to start from scratch? We have self-determination now. Then we will have City Council determination.
This makes sense. Who is leading the charge to fight incorporation this time? Sign me up.
We, the RESIDENTS of San Tan Valley are leading the charge!
What do WE get? A city council made up of RESIDENTS of San Tan Valley, ELECTED by and responsible to the RESIDENTS of San Tan Valley. WE get the legal authority, political power, and shared revenues to buy, build, employ, and develop OUR community as WE see fit. Not to have those things dictated to us by Pinal County, or by Developers and other outside interests none of whom reside in San Tan Valley.
What we get is self detirmination, the power and resources to build OUR OWN community. Controlled by us THE RESIDENTS OF SAN TAN VALLEY.
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bobdotson
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Colorado Springs cuts into services considered basic by many
Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_14303473#ixzz0ehzeLrlD
It will serve STV residents well, if the new city structures to stay "lean", and only do what is absolutely essential, and structure for maximum flexibility (don't get hobbled by debt or compensation obligations).
Last edited on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 10:54 pm by bobdotson
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chino
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MiaTake wrote: Why should the people of STV support the incorporation? I've seen the budget. I'm sure it is good for the county to get us off of their books financially and start charging us directly for public safety, library and animal control.
What do we get for our extra $175.00 per year? We get another layor of government where it will only take 4 votes from our newly elected peers to raise sales taxes, raise property taxes, build a 20 million dollar horse facility, buy a water company and double our current high rates to pay for it, start a police department, a fire department, a judicial system, a garbage company where you will be forced to pay more for less service. Oh and my favorite would be the parks and rec department where we could spend millions to build beautiful parks and then millions to maintain them every year while those not living in STV could come and use them for free. Every new home in Queen Creek pays over $5000 in impact fees for park and rec. That's $5000 I would rather spend in my own back yard.
Gilbert has become a new Mesa, Queen Creek has become a new Gilbert. Do we want to become a new Queen Creek and see our $175 per household per year go to the $10,000 - $15,000+ per year for every household like it is now for the incorporated part of Queen Creek.
Oh, you say that we'll be smarter than that . . . not when enough people from Mesa, Gilbert and Queen Creek move to STV to get their people elected and start shoving their lifestyle down our throats. Once we are incorporated, it only takes 4 votes on the city council to totally control your life.
Just Say No. If it doesn't make sense financially for the other municipalities to annex us then why do we think it makes sense to start from scratch? We have self-determination now. Then we will have City Council determination.
This makes sense. Who is leading the charge to fight incorporation this time? Sign me up.
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MiaTake
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bobdotson wrote: From the Florence Reminder:
..."-- Should the town of Florence support or oppose the incorporation of San Tan Valley? Why?" ...
http://trivalleycentral.com/articles/2010/02/04/florence_reminder_blade_tribune/top_stories/doc4b69eba304890200010440.txt
Might just get your hackles up!
Why should the people of STV support the incorporation? I've seen the budget. I'm sure it is good for the county to get us off of their books financially and start charging us directly for public safety, library and animal control.
What do we get for our extra $175.00 per year? We get another layor of government where it will only take 4 votes from our newly elected peers to raise sales taxes, raise property taxes, build a 20 million dollar horse facility, buy a water company and double our current high rates to pay for it, start a police department, a fire department, a judicial system, a garbage company where you will be forced to pay more for less service. Oh and my favorite would be the parks and rec department where we could spend millions to build beautiful parks and then millions to maintain them every year while those not living in STV could come and use them for free. Every new home in Queen Creek pays over $5000 in impact fees for park and rec. That's $5000 I would rather spend in my own back yard.
Gilbert has become a new Mesa, Queen Creek has become a new Gilbert. Do we want to become a new Queen Creek and see our $175 per household per year go to the $10,000 - $15,000+ per year for every household like it is now for the incorporated part of Queen Creek.
Oh, you say that we'll be smarter than that . . . not when enough people from Mesa, Gilbert and Queen Creek move to STV to get their people elected and start shoving their lifestyle down our throats. Once we are incorporated, it only takes 4 votes on the city council to totally control your life.
Just Say No. If it doesn't make sense financially for the other municipalities to annex us then why do we think it makes sense to start from scratch? We have self-determination now. Then we will have City Council determination.
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Starlit
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SHAFT wrote: I love how EF thinks that AJ is THE ONLY incorporated city in the country. It's like a mathmatical equation to him. Incorporated City = AJ.
SHAFT, the word you might wish to use here is 'mathematical.'
You are laughing at Elliott who is trying to look out for you - for you all.
The City of Apache Junction is one big Cautionary Tale.
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bobdotson
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City services for as little as 50 cents/day?
..."Exploratory committee
Randall Lockner, a Johnson Ranch resident since June of 2005, said a dozen or so pro-incorporation residents met at his home over the weekend. The group has not elected officers or chosen a name for itself.
“If you had to characterize where we are now, we’re an exploratory committee,” Lockner said.
He said there are several reasons he favors incorporation, but primarily it’s self-determination. “Our peers are elected and accountable to the people living in our community.”
He said the group has discussed how to spread the word and begin collecting signatures to place incorporation on the November ballot. “It will ultimately be determined by the people living in the boundaries.”"...
http://www.trivalleycentral.com/articles/2010/02/03/coolidge_examiner/top_stories/doc4b68ac12cf719522083113.txt
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Bambi
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Last edited on Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 05:31 pm by Bambi
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29th, 2010 03:48 pm |
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PCResidentSTV
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This will be a good thing your right Care Free. See now I remember pipeman mentioning the meetings lol got too much going on at one time. But this is something I will be following because its important for our future. I am also going to push this on my neighbors surrounding me.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29th, 2010 02:57 pm |
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Carefree
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PCResidentSTV wrote:
Hi I am sure this has been mentioned many times before, but just to get some clarification on my end and with a shot memory like mine I tend to forget all the time, what needs to be done to get incorporation voting on the ballot for this november? There will be informational meetings with petitions for incorporation. I think Pipeman said the meetings will be taking place soon. The informational budget and legal description of the area to be considered for incorporation is on the Pinal Cty. website. I for one can't wait for this to happen.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29th, 2010 02:20 pm |
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PCResidentSTV
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Hi I am sure this has been mentioned many times before, but just to get some clarification on my end and with a shot memory like mine I tend to forget all the time, what needs to be done to get incorporation voting on the ballot for this november?
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 08:45 pm |
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SHAFT
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I love how EF thinks that AJ is THE ONLY incorporated city in the country. It's like a mathmatical equation to him. Incorporated City = AJ.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 16th, 2010 01:47 pm |
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Fisher 2009
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Bob
Incorporation is like an HOA! Say it like it is! If you do it some tips...
Thumbs up! A charter that spells out all the details . The reason why Apache Junction is Disfunction Junction! No set ethical framework!
Term limits
Fair number of signatures to effect a vote or recall council members!
EF
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12th, 2010 02:03 am |
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14freedom
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The essence of the budget is that all the money we have to work with was made by the sweat and blood, ideas and innovations of someone, everyone who contributes to society. It must become easy to forget just how that money used for any government comes to be in existance. every dollar is created,generated and hard fought somewhere down the line. Who ever is "in charge" of managing tax dollars, It is my hope, that they remember and constantly consider how that money got there. The time and sacrifice spent to get it there. Every tax dollar is precious. I think that this has been forgotten by some. I think WE will remember.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11th, 2010 06:20 pm |
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pipeman
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Great stuff again Bob....Many thanks.
One has to also understand that as a new city, we would be in better shape than an established one. We would be starting with the basics. We would not have to worry about where to cut, what to cut, who to cut and unlike us, when a city cuts staff, they still have to pay for certain things that we would not, such as insurance, vehicles, etc...
Even with this economy, we would be in good shape.
Last edited on Tue Jan 12th, 2010 01:34 am by
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11th, 2010 02:26 pm |
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bobdotson
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Here is a snap shot of current headlines relating to the harsh fiscal reality faced by municipalities all across the country:
"City budget ruled by personnel costs"
"Personnel costs biggest chunk city's budget"
"City budget ruled by personnel costs"
"Spending on benefits per full-time employee nearly doubled"
"Continued increasing legacy costs associated with full-time benefited employees"
"City caught in payroll vise"
"Personnel costs are the single greatest item in the town budge"
"Everybody knows city government costs too much and delivers too little"
"Town goes to 4 day week to reign in personnel costs"
The structure of municipal government should assure fiscal discipline and flexibility.
Substantial capital project outlay and embedded personnel costs are almost always sunk costs, and expenses that in a political context, are nearly impossible to shed in response to shrinking revenue.
Privatization of City Services - The new start-up City should consider privatizing government services as much as possible as a management tool to increase government efficiency, and minimize costs, including the contracting of City staff whenever possible.
The new start-up City should be constrained by charter to do only that what is vital and necessary.
Constrained revenues, and consequently limited government and expanded individual liberty, constitute a win-win for all concerned.
At the following link is a white paper that should be an essential read for all everyone, but in particular, San Tan Valley residents. The context is from the point of view of existing municipalities, but you the reader should imagine the application of the authors principals to the creation of a brand new municipality. I fully support the positions of the author.
http://www.inpolicy.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=418:white-paper-win-win-solutions-for-a-new-indiana-city&catid=14:petitionswhite-papers&Itemid=33
Some contracting advantages of a start-up city's non-core functions:
1. Sunk costs: A sunk cost is a cost that has already occurred and will remain the same regardless of what decision is made. If the cost has not yet occurred (like interest on bonds to pay for facilities), then sunk cost is avoided.
2. Differential Costs: The differential cost shows how a decision to outsource will change a government's costs (there is no differential cost in lay-off of city employees if the cost is by contract from the outset).
3. Multi-year costs: A multiyear contract is usually more attractive to potential vendors, which creates more competition and drives down the costs of the contract. Multi-year costs can be minimized from the very beginning for a start-up city.
4. Transition costs: Transition costs include all of the costs incurred by a government as it shifts a service to an outside contractor. I government is properly structured, transition costs are avoided by a start-up city.
5. Revenues from outsourcing: A new start-up city should anticipate additional revenues that a government collects as a result of outsourcing (Positive flow - contractor pays property tax on facilities vs Negative flow - public capital outlay to purchase or lease & maintain facilities)
6. Cost risk management - It often less difficult (less costly) to move functions from private contract to public staffing, than the reverse. If the cost model favors public staffing in the future, that choice will not be difficult to execute. However, it is an order of magnitude much more difficult to move from a public staffing model to a private staffing model, even when there is overwhelming evidence favoring that change.
If you have trouble opening any of the links, you can copy and paste the link into your browser address bar, or you can use your favorite search engine to search for "White Paper | Win-Win Solutions for a 'New Indiana City".
Some additional links:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/hl843.cfm
http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/article/3672
http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/file/3204/download/3204
The Goldwater Institute would be a good source of advisers for how to best structure the new city. San Tan Valley residents might even be able to get them at no cost if the adopted structure where to support their agenda, and Goldwater Institute could claim the contribution using their model.
Where capital investment will be required, Municipal Lease Purchase may be the way to go:
http://http://www.gleasing.com/page.asp?pageid=0|12|13&id=0|municipal_lease_purchase
Alternative to regional transportation concerns for the new city:
http://mises.org/books/roads_web.pdf
Just a few thoughts as you all consider how to approach incorporation. Love to see constructive dialog on these ideas!
Respectfully,
Bob Dotson
Last edited on Mon Jan 11th, 2010 02:30 pm by bobdotson
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30th, 2009 01:00 am |
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14freedom
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Self governance stimulates the interest of people in the affairs of their neighborhood, sustains local political life, educates the citizen in his/her daily round of civic duty, teaches him/her that perpetual vigilance and sacrifice of his/her own time and labor are the price that must be paid for individual liberty and collective prosperity.
James Bryce,
The American Commonwealth 1891
I found this in Nichole Fyffe's document entitled "Choices for Unincorporated Areas In Arizona" If you want a very good discription of what our choices are this is a great read. You can find a link to it at http://www.citizensforsantanvalleyincorporation.info
If you care about the future of this, our community please let your voice be heard. All voices matter and all help is welcomed in getting the word out and encouraging your neighbors to get involved as well. Sometimes involvement will just start with your own consideration of what you want for your community. Just think about it.
HAPPY NEW YEAR !!
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14freedom
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http://www.transformgov.org/govnews_details.asp?newsid=2033 Here is an example of the kind of vision I and some others have for this area. Just take a quick minute and review this article. This is for real possibility,innovation and vision. I am sorry sometimes I get so frustrated with some who would fight for status quo. who can't see what is right in front of us.Life is a risk everyday. I am glad our forfathers had courage and vision. I hope someday our kids will think that and be proud of what we made happen. I hope they wont say " why didnt they (us) do something?
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PCResidentSTV
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It will take a lot of patients and determination for us to get incorporated. I don't know a whole lot about it, but I do enough and I truly think the positives will definitely out weigh the negative by a long shot. We have lots of potential here and sky's the limit! If we come together united as a city we can make a lot of noise in this State! We can have votes on things we disagree and agree on.
Incorporation could be the start of many positives for this area.
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pipeman
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STV-Voter wrote: I find the Johnson Utilities' missives amusing. A monthly "gift" if you will. Prevarications and personal attacks will backfire.
Yes, they are great for a good chuckle. I keep all of them in a file so I can revert back to them when I am in a pissy mood and need a good laugh, or when I run out of toilet paper in the middle of the night 
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STV-Voter
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I find the Johnson Utilities' missives amusing. A monthly "gift" if you will. Prevarications and personal attacks will backfire.
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pipeman
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14freedom wrote: pcresident wrote: JU seems to be using EF's numbers about fighting incorporation in our latest water bill.
There will be a very small group of people who will fight anything just for the sake of nothing better to do. I ask. Who will benefit from no action at all? Ask yourself that. all of you reading this.Will the members of this great community benefit from inaction? Will our grandchildren benefit from doing nothing? It is the path of leist resistance, the easy way out to do nothing. ACTION BENEFITS. I say to you if a guy is choking on something do you say,"don't do anything you might hurt him. Well some would say that. I for one would do something. I hope only a small group buy into the bologne that the naysayers put out. If it were 237 years ago they would be saying," we should do what the king tells us to do. We can't live without the king. Well thank god some, no many, had the fortitude to DO SOMETHING. This community has an opportunity to help itself. We are the community, US. Prudent,selfless leadership and a community bonded together can accomplish ANYTHING. Please don't listen to the wooosies that say it can't be done and look around at all that have done it. We get to decide not Johnson Utilities not EF.
Oh rest assured that George has people watching this board. Rest assured that there are others who watch this borad that pass along anything that is said about incorporation. Rest assured that members of GSTAC watch this board as well. These are all people who have held the power in this area for a long time and do not want to give it up. Thank God we now have a Supervisor who does not paky into the hands of these people like Sandi did.
14 asked, "who would benefit from no action at all"? That is a great question which should hopefully make everyone ask themselves that question. who would? Certainly not us, the ones who live here and call this beautiful area home. To not act at all, is just giving our power away freely to people who have no personal relationship to our community other than making money off of us and making their bank accounts larger. Are we going to continue to stand back and allow people who don't live here to make decisions about "OUR" community, make decisions about what is going to happen in "OUR" community that they themselves will only benefit from?
14 is also correct saying not to let the naysayers influence you that we can not move forward, become a city and be succesful. Because we can. Sure we may not have everything we want right from the start, but that will come with time. At least we will have control over what happens to our area, what comes to our area, how many homes can be built on a plot of land, what buildings must look like when built, where are tax dollars go, etc... Local control is a must for our future.
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14freedom
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pcresident wrote: JU seems to be using EF's numbers about fighting incorporation in our latest water bill.
There will be a very small group of people who will fight anything just for the sake of nothing better to do. I ask. Who will benefit from no action at all? Ask yourself that. all of you reading this.Will the members of this great community benefit from inaction? Will our grandchildren benefit from doing nothing? It is the path of leist resistance, the easy way out to do nothing. ACTION BENEFITS. I say to you if a guy is choking on something do you say,"don't do anything you might hurt him. Well some would say that. I for one would do something. I hope only a small group buy into the bologne that the naysayers put out. If it were 237 years ago they would be saying," we should do what the king tells us to do. We can't live without the king. Well thank god some, no many, had the fortitude to DO SOMETHING. This community has an opportunity to help itself. We are the community, US. Prudent,selfless leadership and a community bonded together can accomplish ANYTHING. Please don't listen to the wooosies that say it can't be done and look around at all that have done it. We get to decide not Johnson Utilities not EF.Last edited on Tue Dec 1st, 2009 11:58 pm by 14freedom
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Bambi
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Anyone can use any numbers they want to fight incorporation. That's their right. But so do those seeking incorporation, and those numbers are coming directly from a city, not EF, that is similar to ours (Maricopa). Those numbers will reflect what it took to start their ciy and what it's taking to sustain it. We just have to wait till they are crunched to determine the direction to take. It may be too costly at this juncture....or it may be very attainable. No one really knows at this point. Just guesswork and opinions. If you need resolution regarding this issue, I suggest contacting Bryan who took those numbers to crunch for this city.
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pcresident
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JU seems to be using EF's numbers about fighting incorporation in our latest water bill.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 03:53 pm |
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Bambi
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I forgot to mention that the County has purchased right of way recently on the portion of Hunt that is needing improvment. They have also purchased right of ways for drainage. One 3 acre site on Hunt, after the J curve going east, was purchased for drainage on the entire 3 acres, for $700,000., cash.....that's $4.a sq.ft. for what their appraiser designated as prime commercial land, but is not zoned as such. So the County has spent a lot of money recently in achieving their objective to improve Hunt. Last edited on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 03:55 pm by Bambi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 03:19 pm |
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Bambi
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Here's another old email I found about the market back in 2005. Notice the report about Pinal County. Remember when the County said they didn't see all this growth coming? Looks like Brown did. Anyway, the beginning of the end, or so we thought. Check out all those stats for the different areas and the amount of growth....little did we know we were creating a doomsday.
Access data and reports at wwwwwwwww...rrrlllbbbrrrooowwwnnnrrreeepppooorrrtttsss...cccooom
"ANOTHER ALL-TIME HOUSING RECORD"
63,570 new home permits in metro Phoenix in 2005!
Remember all that doom and gloom talk last year. Had you based
your plans on the 53,000 permits forecast by those guys you would
have missed an awful lot of opportunity and profit!
Actually, we are very proud of our own June 2005 forecast of
63,000 … and our long track record for accurate housing
forecasting in the region. It does keep the pressure on, and will be
a tough act to follow.
A new record … no bursting bubble … no diminished
population growth … robust job growth [we expect the
revisions of the job growth data to confirm our 5% forecast]
… new home price increases slowing right on the schedule
we forecast … strong growth in Pinal County and the SW
Valley … and domination by the big builders …. All right in
line with the expectations we shared with you last year .
The future? I suggest you avail yourself of our comprehensive
Forecast 2006-2010 document … available on our website at
http://www.rlbrownreports.com.
We have strong expectations for the 2006-2010 period for this
housing market, and once again are mystified by the doom and
gloom of a handful of the academics and others who see a dismal
housing market ahead.
Up-to-date housing data and analysis for:
Metro Phoenix Pinal County
Tucson Maricopa County
Denver Casa Grande
Albuquerque Maricopa
Las Vegas Eloy
Central Oregon Coolidge
Prescott Florence
Sedona Flagstaff
Chino Valley Wickenburg
Prescott Valley Yavapai County
NEW HOME CLOSINGS Dec-05
SALES BY MONTH 6,752
SAME MO LAST YEAR 5,072
PERCENT CHG 33.12%
YTD CLOSINGS 57,440
YTD CLOSINGS LAST YR 48,880
% CHANGE VS PREVIOUS YEAR 17.51%
Pinal County closing data is partial
PERMITS - Maricopa & Pinal Dec-05
PERMITS BY MONTH 5,079
SAME MO LAST YR 4,655
PERCENT CHG 9.11%
YTD PERMITS 63,570
LAST YTD PERMIT 60,872
PERCENT CHG 4.43%
RESALES Dec-05
RESALES BY MONTH 8,970
SAME MO LAST YR 9,923
PERCENT CHG -9.60%
YTD RESALES 134,661
LAST YTD RESALES 112,813
PERCENT CHG 19.37%
Pinal County closings incomplete
YELLOW BACKGROUND = CAUTION
Last edited on Sun Nov 29th, 2009 03:20 pm by Bambi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 03:16 pm |
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Bambi
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Here is a conversation via public email that I had with Graig Stanley in Public Works, regarding some quesitons I had about Hunt, etc., back in 2007. Start at the bottom and work yourself up.
Also, remember we have to see those numbers crunched about incorporating first before any final decisions are made, so you may want to save your breaths and energy for the final say. Then we can gather and plan how we/you as a community will go about making this happen. Bryan won't be involved at that point, other than County offices dealing in the transition. We will also have an attorney on board to address all legal questions. So enjoy your holidays, as not much will get done during this holiday time.
Email........
Greg: "thank you very much for your quick response. It sure is nice to know what's going on in your community and to have you and David respond to me, as you guys are the "horses mouth" so to speak. I feel much more confident knowing this. thanks again.
Bambi
Gregory Stanley <Gregory.Stanley@co.pinal.az.us> wrote:Bambi,
Also thanks from me. These are responses supplementing what David sent you. Regarding #1 - I went back and researched a while ago, as I had the same issue thinking that Solera should be adding lanes to Hunt. Unfortunately, that land was part of a development agreement that included the original paving of Hunt at the 2 lane width, and did not include widening with the phases you mentioned. We are currently advertising to get an engineer firm to design Hunt Highway improvements - it will be a multi-year project tackling drainage, safety concerns and fixing the "scallops" left by various developments.
#3 - Yes - one of those 2 will be installing the signal. Borgata may be the first, and it will be required by the first one in.
#4 - We will be dealing with all of our safety concerns on Hunt when we design and construct the project. We have recently added reflective pavement markers and signage in that area.
#6 - The ½ cent sales tax was used to pay for the project.
Thanks, Greg
>>> David Kuhl 2/20/2007 1:44 PM >>>
Bambi,
Thank you for the list of questions. Most of these are traffic questions, so I will forward them to Greg Stanley, Director of Public Works. I' m sure he can handle most of it. Question #2, is ours. We are waiting for an appeal filed by the owner of San Tan Flats to be heard by the Board of Supervisors. This will probably be in the next month or possibly two. I haven't been appraised of the exact timing. San Tan Flats is in violation of the Zoning Ordinance - which prohibits outdoor entertainment. We are handling it with existing, in-house staff.
Question 5 - I'll have to research the commercial project near Thompson and get back to you on Wednesday. The staff who are managing that project are in training today.
Question 6 - The Assessor's Office could research the ownership question you have relating to land near the J-Curve. We are continuing our work on signs in the area and have recently worked with the folks who install the off-premises developer signs, to ensure the signs are moved outside the public right-of-way, onto private property. Wes LaCrosse could give you more information on sign issues in the area, if you are interested. Greg Stanley would know how the road was paid for at the J-Curve.
I hope all is well with you.
David Kuhl, AICP, Director
Pinal County Planning and Development
31 N. Pinal St Bldg "F"
Florence AZ 85218
[font=""] [font=""] [font=""] [font=""] [font=""] [font=""] 520-866-6447 520-866-6447 [font=""] 520-866-6447
>>> Bambi Sandquist 02/20/2007 12:40 PM >>>
Good afternoon David. Hope this finds you well.
I would like to ask you a few questions if I may, that I and clients would like answers to. Some you will be able to answer hopefully, and anothers you can refer me to the right source.
1. We were wondering why Pulte's project Solera and the project right across the street from them, perhaps Centex, not sure, did not have to provide additional lanes on Hunt, other than a turning lane, as most developers are required to do along the front of their projects?
2. What is the current status of San Tan Flats dancing problems as they relate to the County and the taxpayer, including the costs involved?
3. Are you requiring a traffic signal be installed for the two commercial projects at Thompson and Hunt? Borgata?
4. Are there plans to straighten out "dead man's curve" any more, as they build at Thompson? How many fatalities have there been on Hunt Hiway, between Az. Farms and Ellsworth, and especially dead man's curve, since 2000? In the year 2000 I believe, I was told by your head engineer that there were 13 fatalities at dead man's curve to that date, which is the stretch right before Thompson Rd.
5. The commercial/office project that was submitted for approval on Hunt, just west of Mountain View Church, and Thompson Rd. in fact, it is located on the old thompson....what happened to that project?
6. The J curve. Who owns the "island" in between the J curve and old Ellsworth. Who paid to have the J curve built? Will he be fencing it to stop people from selling their wares? How about signs? I know Sandie was going to look into that.
Your answers would be appreciated. thank you
Bambi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 02:56 pm |
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46th Post |
jackblack
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You got a lot of good questions there nybrian. What I heard about those rural lands being left out is because Gordon Brown and his group would fight the incorporation if they were included. So Bryan is cutting a deal with them so they won't fight it. Don't matter what the rest of the rural people want.
Sandi Smith once said that the library was planned for Hunt and Arizona Farms Rd. since they own the land there. I don't know if that is still the plan.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29th, 2009 05:58 am |
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47th Post |
nybrian
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Just a couple comments....
I think EF is a nutty as anyone, but I have no problem with getting the supervisors when we are supposed to----after the census. It clearly was a way to target one county with the goal to get the representation changed from Democrat to Republican. I'm pretty sure some of the people who voted for it even admitted that. And if we really have 80,000 citizens of the 320,000 total Pinal County citizens the boundaries should be drawn fairly, not with the idea that we just follow the Community College boundaries.
Also, who is going to pay for Hunt Highway improvements? Do we even have any idea what the cost will be? Why is the county paying for a bridge that a few people on Schnepff road will use while we can't get an overused, pothole marked road even looked at? And if our future Mayor is from the Ironwood area of the city is there going to be any assurances that Hunt Highway will be a priority?
Will the money from sales taxes from the Walmart, Fry's (on Hunt), two Walgreens, etc go to the Hunt Corridor, or will it be shared with the Ironwood corridor even though they will do the bulk of their shopping in QC at the QC Fry's, the QC Walmart, and the QC Walgreens and CVS? Why not just incorporate the Hunt Highway corridor, and keep the money in our area?
What percentage of the population lives on the Hunt side of the railroad tracks and what percent lives on the Ironwood side? Where will our future library and 'town center' be located---down by Johnson Ranch, or up by Combs? Or is this going to be an incredibly divisive issue that will be fought over bitterly only after we vote on incorporation?
Why is the plot of land along Hunt, from Thompson to Mountain Vista left out of the city---that seems like some good potential commercial land that can become a revenue producer. Is QC hoping to annex that land, along with the high-end residential that is going in behind there?
If small strips of county island land are so dangerous, why are we allowing the land behind San Tan Heights and Johnson Ranch to remain county island? If the police that we are paying for are detoured to the county island will we be reimbursed? Will they be able to use our library? Our parks?
Thanks,
Brian
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 07:41 pm |
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48th Post |
pipeman
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STV- don't worry about that knucklehead EF. He does not live in STV, he actually lives in AJ. He just likes to but his nose in where it don't belong. He thinks he knows better than us what is best for us. And if you didn't know, he was one of the goofballs who screwed us out of getting the additional 2 supervisors.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 02:50 pm |
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49th Post |
STV-Voter
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Incorporation equals big government? Maybe the boogeyman lives under my bed, or in the closet?
C'mon EF, let's get serious about this debate.
Yes, incorporation adds another layer of government. That's an undeniable fact. Please bear in mind though that this layer would be of local citizens, not some cabal of corrupt supervisors, county managers, county recorders, etc. These people would live in our community and therefore be better positioned to engage the people regularly. If they're not doing their jobs to our satisfaction, we could recall them.
I'm no fan of expanding government for the sake of enlarging beuracracy. In our county though, and especially in STV, we need better local representation. We're not getting our fair share of attention to our specific needs with the status quo.
We need to take control of our own destiny. This will not be easy. It will not cost less than what we pay now for county provided services. The most salient of the pros for incorporation is local control of our community. Most people opposed will scream about higher taxes. Some increase in taxes is inevitable, do not be naive. However, I challenge everyone to ponder the following.
How much are you willing to pay, or in other words, what is the value (in your mind) of empowering your community with self-governance?
What will likely happen to our level of services if we don't incorporate immediately?
How many more of our revenue centers or economic catalysts will be pilfered by neighboring municipalities in the next several years if there’s nobody to prevent it?
Who will determine the vision of our community's future?
Who will devise and execute a plan for controlled growth?
Last edited on Thu Nov 26th, 2009 07:55 pm by STV-Voter
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2009 05:32 am |
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50th Post |
pintail
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in this case incorporation = a responsible group that can safeguard the interests of our area.
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