| Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 09:45 pm |
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Say What
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They have to do what they can to survive!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 03:14 pm |
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2JPs
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It seems we're continuing to lose the battle for more golf revenue. Have you seen the large ads from Palmbrook Golf Course?? A private golf course located within Sun City?? They are promoting $25 rounds of golf but no mention of having to be a member and possibly you have to buy a pack of 10 rounds to get this price. Still.....it just isn't right for them to undercut the golf fees charged to residents of Sun City at the RCSC courses. Do the private courses feel justified in discounting their prices because we are now open to the public? This has to be addressed.
Here's the post that started it all and it seems we've come full circle:
I really have no objection to taking 55+ aged non-residents money to help offset our golf budget costs. What I do object to is the small difference in what a resident pays compared to the proposed non-resident unlimited use fee. We do not need 8 premiere RCSC golf courses in Sun City and cannot even consider closing any of them. There are 2 privately owned "premiere" courses for those that can afford to play them. I would like to see a trial of one regulation course and one executive course be priced at an affordable level to see how much play is increased. It will cost $26 to play 18 holes after November 1st. Lawn bowling is free, bocce is free, tennis is free, pickleball is free, shooting pool is free, shuffleboard is free and you can bowl 3 leagues for the cost of one round of golf. Lower the winter cost of 18 holes to $20($11 for 9 holes) for residents and I think you will see the rounds skyrocket. The maintenance costs the same for 20 rounds a day or 45 rounds. Why wouldn't you opt for more resident players by reducing the rates? The prepaid unlimited play for residents should also be reduced. To celebrate the 50th Anniversary why not have a buy one unlimited play....get one 50% off for residents???? I don't understand if the $400,000 needed in 2010 is for improvements or is an amount that is needed for normal maintenance. I know that the outside play will just get steamrolled through at the board meeting on the 29th but it sure doesn't help the average Sun City resident that would like to be able to afford to play their home course once a week. 
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| Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 03:01 pm |
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annereport
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If we fail to attract golfers, we will have to pay for the golf courses. If you don't want to pay for them "whether you use them or not", then it is best to not move into Sun City in the first place. On that subject we agree with the RCSC board.
Where we part company with them is we place the poor performance of the golf operations on the superintendent who is the one in charge. Lack luster performance should require replacement.
Lower cost to homeowners for golfing will generate more participation. The courses are intended for the benefit of the homeowners, not the public. There is no incentive to buy our homes if the golf is available whether you do or not.Last edited on Thu Mar 4th, 2010 12:12 pm by annereport
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| Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 04:22 am |
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jetcam
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The stats that you quoted, is that for AZ or for Sun City? Arizona beauty is beyond verbal description. The sunsets in Arizona are the most beautiful to be seen in the world, I know. Think of the number of courses versus the number of golfers, and math comes out askew.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 04:12 am |
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ernied
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With more than 325 days of sunshine annually, the State of Arizona is an outdoor enthusiast`s dream, but for avid golfers, it`s a real paradise. Over 200 golf courses have helped make the Valley of the Sun the "Golf Capital of the World", as named by the National Golf Foundation. On many of the courses, the biggest challenge to making par may not be the challenging greens, desert canyons or difficult putts, but fighting the urge to stare at all the incredible scenery.
The average 18-hole daily fee golf course records 30,000 rounds per year, employs a total of 13 full-time people and brings in about $992,000 in total revenues.Attachment: Juggle_cheap_cs_20080625172105.jpg (Downloaded 24 times)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 02:10 am |
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jetcam
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"Even though only about 20 percent of our residents play golf, those who do appreciate a quality experience." From the Pulte-Del Webb website.
To the folks that look for golf to be affordable, you can say you heard it here it first. "Affordable" is a matter of perspective, and finances, so keeping the cost of participating in this game will continue to go up, year after year. The costs will borne by all who live in Sun City as long as there is an inherent belief that golf comes before the need of the residents themselves. Golf is a dying game that has little interest from those that are retiring today. Statistics prove it at every level, every course, even the makers of golf equipment have lost a huge stock market share due to lack of people to purchase their wares.
Those that wish to continue to partake of this game should be made to bear the greater cost of maintaining the various paraphernalia and grounds. It appears that only about 20% of the population plays this game, why should the whole of the community have to pay for this habit? If I like to drink, should the RCSC subsidize my alcohol tab on the backs of residents? If the neighbor likes to smoke, should she receive a subsidy from RCSC to pay for her habit? I could go on, but I think I made the point.
To all of the folks that moved here because there were golf facilities, good for you. Per Anne's earlier post, "We need to market to golfers who are retiring and can afford to play" hope you folks have deep pockets, because that is where the costs will eventually end up, as it should be.
Last edited on Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 03:09 am by jetcam
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| Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 01:15 am |
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Say What
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Golf and Tiger are yesterday!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 3rd, 2010 12:17 am |
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SunCityWestBill
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Anne, the "new" retirees are more interested in walking, bike riding, running. More active endeavors. These are activities they have pursued for the majority of their life and wish to continue. Look at the communtiies developing in Tennessee - they are not "golf" centered. Very few "new" retirement communities are.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 11:21 pm |
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Say What
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And who are you to judge? You are a .........................!
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annereport
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Attract golfing retirees. Great courses will do that. Sun City does not have any great courses, not one...
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rfolland
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The "Golfies" in the Sun Cities seem to be operating on the supposition that everybody is a potential golfer and that if you could only get the cost down low enough, everyone would flock to the courses. That's a bit of "pie in the sky." I tried golf about 40+ years ago and decided it wasn't worth the time and effort. My wife's interest is at the level where if you paid her to play, she still wouldn't.
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jetcam
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Golf Declining as American Pastime
Jim Kass, the research director of the National Golf Foundation, an industry group, said the gradual but prolonged slump in golf has defied the adage, “Once a golfer, always a golfer.” About three million golfers quit playing each year, and slightly fewer than that have been picking it up. A two-year campaign by the foundation to bring new players into the game, he said, “hasn’t shown much in the way of results.”
Participation Down
Golf participation in the U.S. fell to 26 million in 2005 from 30 million in 2000, according to the most recent study conducted by the Florida-based National Golf Foundation. About 3 million golfers quit playing each year and several hundred of the 3,000 new golf courses built in the U.S. between 1990 and 2003 have closed, according to the NGF.
The emphasis is on teaching children, starting at age eight (8) to learn the game and its rules, so in forty seven years, we will have a new interest in golf in the area
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rfolland
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A while back, I made reference to a study done by the Del Webb people who are now a part of Pulte Homes. They were looking beyond the "Boomers" to the following generation and their preferences for a retirement community. The general result was that they wanted modern features in a smaller house, home offices as they will probably continue working, and were willing to sacrifice community amenities for overall cost. A large all-encompassing resort type facility just wasn't on their list. These folks are in the "post-retirement plan" work force and will go back to the "good old days" of retiring on what they themselves can put away provided the stock market doesn't wipe them out.
The original Del Webb "formula" fit the '60s generation quite well. The paradigm has shifted. That was then, this is now. The "Boomers" are quite different folks than their parents and have different ideas as to how things should be structured.
Last edited on Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 05:52 pm by rfolland
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jetcam
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Obviously, Anne has a one track mindset about golf. I could go on-line and produce result after result that shows golf, as a sport, and as a game, is producing diminishing returns. There are a number of retirees within the community that have recently retired to the area, paid the PIF, and have zero interest in golf. Removing a person from their job, just because one person thinks they are doing a poor job, is delusional. If he were doing such a poor job, he would have been removed already for poor job performance. "We need to market to golfers who are retiring and can afford to play" is a rather lame view of the folks that are moving into the area. There seems to be a real missed point, and that is that there are plenty of other activities to draw people who want to live here other than golf. "Cow pasture pool" is not everybodies idea of a good time.
There is a glut of golf facilities in this area. Between the private and public courses, there are not enough people in the state to play all of the open land around here. Golf can stay affordable when affording the maintenance and upkeep becomes affordable. Keeping all of this open land watered, fed, plugged, seeded, mowed, and groomed all has a cost associated with it that has nothing to do with who is running the show.
Anne, you are still dreaming about when times had June Cleaver in her pearls, waiting at home for Ward to return from his golf game. Those days are gone for today's retirees. Very few of the boomers have even taken up the game of golf. There is little interest in playing golf by new retirees.
If golf is to be priced competitively, it needs to be available on courses that are being used continuously. That will never happen in this area. Not because of who is running the program, not because of who the maintenance workers are, but because there will NEVER be enough golfers in this area to pack the tee times to make these courses profitable at any level. As long as all of these courses remain open and maintained, the costs will always out strip the play, meaning golfers and non-golfers alike will continue to be levied costs that are unfair to all.
"We need to market to golfers who are retiring and can afford to play" There are plenty of folks retiring that can afford to play, they just choose to spend their money joining other clubs that require monies as well, such as the clay club, the ceramics club, the porcelain club, the lapidary club, etc. What I would like to see is marketing to a full time, year around base, that would allow all of us to have neighbors year around. As the population ages, there are folks in the community that can benefit from having others nearby just to be able to talk to, visit with, and have a peace of mind knowing that the car doors they heard were their neighbors and not someone trying to break into an unattended home.
Anne, I support your petitions and your recall drive, but it appears that you have a "wedge" stuck some where about golf!
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annereport
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We need to attract golfers and bowlers into the community. The more golfers and bowlers the less the non-golfers and non-bowlers would have to pay to subsidize the amenities.
It is not just the salary of the inexperienced golf superintendent that's our objection; it's that his inexperience causes expenditures that can be prevented if we had someone with experience instead. His mistakes are magnified eight times since we have eight courses.
Inferior golf courses will not attract golfers to Sun City. Especially ones who have retired and have time to play. Those people will go elsewhere. The renovations made to the courses that remove the challenge will also not attract golfers who have retired with time on their hands.
The solution is an experienced superintendent instead of a novice. Nothing personal; only practical and logical solutions.
Golf is not down where the courses are well-maintained. In fact, people pay high prices to play them. Our courses do not measure up. The gutter eyesore is proof of that claim.Attachment: lwguttr.jpg (Downloaded 60 times) Last edited on Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 04:34 pm by annereport
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Bill Pearson
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So Annereport, how do you feel about jetcam's suggestion to close a couple of golf courses to deal with the diminishing number of golfers? And rather than just shouting fire John S and a bunch of his staff, the reality is golf play is down all over the country. The problem is bigger than a salary.
I thought many of your comments jetcam about the boomers club were on target. Again, the problem is that many of those boomers will be working and whether they will have time to play golf is all part and parcel of the the future of this community.
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annereport
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The Sun City Formula Registry was formed to gather a constituency to hold the RCSC board accountable for their spending and assessing.
Our members attend meetings and then we alert those who can't attend when something happens that requires Member action. All of the quorums from last year were a result of our efforts.
We send out calls to action and if the members agree they show up. If they don't agree, they don't show up, which is fine, too. We don't expect agreement 100% percent of the time.
Our reports on our website "The Anne Report" http://www.annereport.com are a permanent record of our efforts.
We are set in principle that Del Webb set down.
See http://www.annereport.com/formula.html
To hold the RCSC board accountable for their assessing and spending, we are the only game in town. If it weren't for the SCFR, there would be none since most people do not attend meetings and don't know what's happening, and other organizations cooperate with the RCSC having been infiltrated by the "good ole boys".
Sun City West Bill does not live in Sun City and has a view of what's happening here as a Retirement Dream Come True. We ascribed to the same ideals when we arrived, but found something different when we picked up the rock and looked under it.
The SCFR is trying to believe the Dream. However, it is difficult when your property is held hostage to a "cold corporation" with power to rewrite the contract without your permission and assess and spend outrageously on projects you didn't approve of. And if you can't afford to pay them because you are old and on meager income you are advised by the corporation to just move out so the corporation can enrich itself on the $3000 buy-in assessment. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!
Doesn't sound like a Dream Come True anymore to us.
With Membership power, we want to make Sun City homeowner-friendly again. We don't like cold corporations in charge that throw old people under the bus for money.Last edited on Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 02:55 pm by annereport
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annereport
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Wish we had Glen Beck's money!
We'd use it to sue the RCSC for not obeying the Planned Communities Act or Title 10, as well as charging unequal assessments, removing voting rights yet charging mandatory assessments, and on and on.
Since we don't have his money, the cheapest thing to do (although not the easiest) is to gather petition signatures to bring to a membership vote amendments to the RCSC articles of incorporation.
RCSC-approved Petitions P-01 and P-02 will bring to a membership vote amendments to remove the board's power to recall board members and write bylaws/board policies without a membership vote of ratification. We are making history!
Join us!
see http://www.annereport.com/petition.html
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Say What
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Anne is never happy! Sad............
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SunCityWestBill
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Anne, you remind me so much of Glenn Beck, his tactics and antics.
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annereport
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The golf superintendent has never run a single golf course before running eight for Sun City. He doesn't know what he is doing and when he makes a mistake it's eight times worse.
Sun City is in trouble as long as the RCSC board fails to recognize that its golf operations are not up to Del Webb standards and continues with the same guy running the show.
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ernied
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Re: Removing the challenges on the course
This is the worst thing any course can do, people will go elsewhere to play. I do have an issue about the courses here and this is why are the fairways cut so short? They seem to mow them down to the dirt. The roughs are dirt, the root systems seem to be dead at many courses here. I don't understand why as they don't need to mow the rough down to the dirt. Its supposed to be longer than the fairway.
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annereport
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We need to make golf affordable to the homeowners living here. We do that by getting rid of the amateur in charge who is wasting our resources; get an expert in charge so the price can come down.
See http://www.annereport.com/golfprop.html
We could halve the work force and thereby the cost of equipment.
We need to market to golfers who are retiring and can afford to play. The more golfers retiring here the less non-golfers will have to pay. Removing the challenges on the course like they did to Lakes West will not cut it. Again, gutter eyesores instead of golf course water features don't make great marketing tools for pictures in magazines to promote our golf courses.
We need to also promote bowling. And we need to hire Pacific Aquascape to reline Viewpoint Lake. Using any other company is a waste of money as has already been proven to be true.
We're absent from these threads recently because we are busy getting signatures on our two petitions (P-01 and P-02) which will bring to a membership vote amendments to the RCSC Articles of Incorporation. We want to remove the board's power to recall board members or write bylaws, etc., without member ratification. Those changes will put the homeowner in charge of his destiny here. The tax and spenders will be controlled. Seniors on fixed income cannot tolerate the insecurity offered by a group of people who have theirs and then waste money like they did on the Bell Lawnbowling building for $410,000.
Come sign the petitions.
see http://www.annereport.com/petition.html
The picture is of the Lakes West Golf Course "water feature"; it used to look like a natural stream with water falls and ducks floating on it...By the way this eyesore cost $200,000 and it could been done right for $165,000. The gutter contractor is the same one that did the Bell Lawnbowling Building for $410,000...Attachment: gutter1.jpg (Downloaded 78 times)
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jetcam
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Perhaps there are other issues that have Anne detained from being able to post any response. We will all hope that she is well, allowing her to continue her much needed work.
It could also be one of the first times that she, or anyone else, has seen, in print, what the next generation thinks about our home. Del Webb was an entrepreneur, and he saw an opportunity to build a niche community, based up some unique ideas that were very unique to views of 50 years ago. Come to today's world, and there are many more working adults living here, not able to join some of the clubs and activities because their work schedules conflict with the hours of service offered by various activities.
The retirement packages that were enjoyed by those that retired as short as 10 years ago are no longer there for us now. The financial losses to those that thought they could retire within the next few years have been tremendous. Also, trying being an "experienced" worker, and hold onto your job, or worse, go and get another job. The MBA's come into the organization, look around, and decide that what they are paying you for your 30 years of service, they could hire four interns, no benefits, and pocket a bonus for the department savings. You are out the door, no warning, no cake, just a pat on the back and someone says "no hard feelings, okay".
Back in the 80's, job consolidation was a big thing, it was called "job sharing". It ended up that each person would do the work of two people. That is also the advent of the home computer, and viola, now you can work from home and work. There is no time for golf, not even golf lessons. There were times that you were lucky to be included in the family vacations, because at the last minute, something always needed to be done at the office that could only be accomplished by you. When you left to go on a vacation, away from home, you never knew if when you came back, if you still had a job, as it appeared the company motto was "if you don't do it, we will find someone who can."
Why all of this rambling on? Most new boomers coming into the area are not going to be golf players. It costs money to play golf, and they don't have it. Having access to various clubs is going to be a new and strange world, as most of the boomer women have been working outside of the home and have had little time to allow their creative side come out.
Del Webb had ideas that were very encompassing 50 years ago. If none of us wants our investments in our homes and community to slip away, we need to look forward to what other adult communities offer. Wi-Fi access in most public building beyond 5 pm. Computer classes as well as other social type classes offered in the evenings and on weekends. Cooking classes as well as get-together's that allow the meals to be made at one afternoon and taken home. If we are all going to have to pay for the lake, make it more accessible with longer hours and paddle boats. A wine tasting club that can meet at one of the golf course locations. Get the co-op to have a location right here in Sun City so all can have access to fresh fruit and veggies at a great price! A club that will share duties babysitting those that are caring for parents that need full time help. Think of it as a childcare exchange for seniors. Every caretaker needs a few hours or a day off, and this would be a supportive effort between those that need this service.
Read what is out there as to what the graying of America means, and you can get a good idea of how to market to this group of residents. Taking care of their parents, trying to have a life of their own that balances work or retirement, and possibly having bounce back kids from time to time. What I am saying is not new, just news that most don't want to hear. As a Community, we can do this, even to the stubborn codgers that hate everything.
And to stay on track with the topic, golf can be affordable once it is determined just how many courses are really needed for the amount of golfers that actually use the various courses. I would rather close some courses, allow them to remain greenbelt area, reduce the cost of maintenance such as aeration, fertilizer and such. Put the money into making the courses that will remain open the best courses in the area without opening up the courses to public. I still don't like the idea of non-residents strolling in our backyards, under the guise of golfing, and prowling the homes for contents or home invasions.
Last edited on Mon Mar 1st, 2010 05:07 am by jetcam
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28th, 2010 04:57 pm |
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rfolland
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Bill, after what seems to have been a brief hiatus, do you, by any chance, detect a difference in Anne's writing? It seems to me that the vocabulary, syntax, and arrangement of thoughts are a bit different; that the arguments/discussions are a bit more measured. Could there possibly be a new set of fiingers on the keyboard?
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28th, 2010 04:34 pm |
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Bill Pearson
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You will note jetcam that Anne did not respond to your comments, even though you paid tribute to her. The fact is you made one major mistake may have left her speechless: You suggested with the diminishing numbers of golfers the RCSC look at closing a golf course or two. That suggestion would send Anne off the deep end.
Honestly, i don't bring this up to bash Anne. It is more about the challenges of running the community. The fact is, there was an attempt to modify the Articles of Incorporation that would have given greater flexibility to how the golf courses are used (currently they have to remain golf courses, no exception).
Mind you, i'm not suggesting that eliminating golf courses is a good or bad idea. The reality is, people that purchased those homes paid a premium to live on a golf course and to take that away would be wrong. Point being, it isn't that simple.
Let's look at another example: Viewpoint Lake is an important feature in the community. Those benefiting the most are the ones living on the lake. Those of us that take guests there or just enjoy the beauty of the area also benefit. That said, there are lots of folks living in Sun City that don't even know the lake exists. The cost to stop the leakage will be massive...who should pay?
Finally, there has been much discussion about the new Fairway project. Anyone thinking the folks in phase 1 don't deserve a newer, nicer rec center should give their head a shake. There have been thousands and thousands of homes sold in phase 1 since the capital preservation fee was enacted. Don't they have the right to see their investment in the future come to life?
There are no easy answers to the future of Sun City. The best solution is, in my humble opinion, is to start marketing Sun City to the boomers. We have the lowest cost with the most amenities of any active retirement community in the country. We are replacing old and outdated rec centers so we can attract boomers and change the perception that Sun City has (which is imperative).
Ultimately we all need remember Sun City was built for active retirees. With the shift to more and more folks working later in life, those activities are having less value. The good news is, there are still millions of seniors each year that will actually retire and we need to make Sun City one of the places they consider when looking for a retirement value.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 26th, 2010 04:31 am |
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jetcam
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Anne has the right idea. Get rid of the clique that has taken over the RCSC leadership positions and find folks that are really interested in being involved with the community in the best interest of the community.
As far as having a forward looking group coming in, I would be one of those. Golf has declined, and I am not in favor of opening up the facilities to anyone and everyone outside of Sun City. I say close two of the courses, keep the green space, and install solar collectors to help offset the costs that the homeowners incur to live here. Let Sun City own its own version of a power grid that gets us out of APS' pocket, and allow any extra electric generated be sold to APS, rather then APS dictating to us outlandish rates. We live in the middle of sun country, use it! Once we start to generate our own electic, think of how much the costs can come down of maintaining the RCSC facilities.
We also need to have exceptions to the shed and clothes line issues. We have more sun then we can ever use, so drying clothes on clothes lines, saving the homeowner money, and saving the environment makes way too much sense.
Potting sheds, or storage sheds for those that wish to grow gardens to supplement our food supply, as well as our neighbors food supplies. No, I don't want it attached to the house, that defeats the use of a garden shed. I think that if someone has a six foot fence around their yard, then having the above mentioned items are easily hidden behind the fence. I don't want to do anything additional to my yard, only to have the two old bittys across the street start making trouble. I hear that there is a call for an architectural control committee, well allow them to assist homeowners with purchasing an appropriate shed and placed in the back of the property.
If the current board is removed, I will look to run, as I have a loud enough voice to be heard, and I am loyal to no group, except for the residents of Sun City. My platform: It is the 21st century, make this the community that embaces the new without losing sight of our history. With resident involvement, all is possible. Bust the apathy that has taken a hold of this community, and look for new ways to bring about positive change for all.
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annereport
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Thanks! Typo...
Petition signing and training is daily from noon to 2pm (rain or shine) at the Dog Park, N Thunderbird Rd next door to Washington Federal Savings at Del Webb Bl. La Ronde Centre eastside.
Come join us and bring two issues (Petition P-01 and P-02) to a membership vote.
We want to revise the RCSC articles of incorporation:
1) to remove the board's power to recall board members without a membership vote and
2) to remove the board's power to write bylaws, etc., without a membership vote.
see http://www.annereport.com/petition.htmlLast edited on Sun Feb 28th, 2010 05:00 pm by annereport
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rfolland
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Friday is the 5th... possibly your calendar is out of calibration.
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SunCityWestBill
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"annereport", as a resident of Sun City, it is unfortunate your "voice" within these forums is not one of progress. Last edited on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 11:28 am by SunCityWestBill
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annereport
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No matter what generation runs Sun City, golf needs to be affordable. We're fortunate the golf courses are here. They improve air quality and keep dust down. They make Sun City beautiful with less density. They create a better quality of life for everybody, golfers as well as non-golfers.
All we need are professionals to run the operations instead of the amateur they've got now. That point will never change no matter what generation you're talking about.
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rfolland
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It all depends on your point of view (There are grey hats too) ...... Remember, Anne, the only thing that is constant is change. Each succeeding generation has their own take on the things their elders held sacred. That's the way the world works. You can fight it, but, in the long run it won't matter.
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annereport
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Rfolland is a black hat...not a brown hat (just in cast anyone is just tuning in...)
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rfolland
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The world must be a wonderful place when you live in total denial. The 60s might have been wonderful to some folks, but they're gone, never to return.
Sorry, Anne, the world and things in it are seldom black or white, there are more shade of gray than you could ever imagine. Categorizing everything as black or white, good or bad, is at best a simplistic outlook and quite probably a foolish one.
Your "Black Hat-White Hat" analogy doesn't hold water.... even in the western movies there were guys who wore Brown Hats..... they were the moderates.
Last edited on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 07:05 pm by rfolland
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rfolland
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Anne, A few things you need to come to grips with about the future:
1. The "Post Boomers" will be retiring later (67+) if at all.
2. Due to the demise of many pension plans, they won't have the financial resources of the Sun City originals. 401k plans are insufficient for extended periods.
3. They are not avid golfers... the game is in a nationwide decline, probably reverting to what it started out as: a rich man's diversion.
4. Research shows that "Post Boomers" are willing to sacrifice amenities for affordability.
5. They want smaller houses with modern features and home offices.
6. The Dell Webb organization (Pulte Homes) has changed it's model community to accommodate the "Post Boomers" .
Marching forward into the 21st century with your eyes firmly fixed on the 1960s won't handle it. I realize that as people age, change is anathema, but it is quite often inevitable and even necessary.
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annereport
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You've got something against Angels carrying American flags with a white dove of peace flying around? Wow! That says it all. The lines have been drawn clearly. We're dividing the room. The good guys against the bad guys. The white hats against the black hats. Black and white, with no grey.
The petition drive and a membership vote should revitalize Sun City.
It's going to be fun.
America! What a great country we have!
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SunCityWestBill
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It had been interesting, uplifing and educational to read the rational back and forth responses posted on this issue since January 30th, until most recently. Very positive, thoughtful, constructive probing comments and observations and then well, you can see for yourself.
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rfolland
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Anne, the picture you posted is one of the worst examples of kitsch I've seen in years! Tacky doesn't even come close.
From you argument, a board is unnecessary. All that is needed is a quarterly membership meeting overseen by the Sun City Formula Registry. Question: Where are you going to seat 30,000+ people?
Last edited on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 05:05 pm by rfolland
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annereport
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Say What,
The SCFR will find out what the members think; that's what we were formed to do. We do it through petition circulation. It's an opinion poll with teeth.
Petitioning is guaranteed us by the U.S. Constitution. It's not something to joke about.
As far as the expense of voting. The cost of voting four times a year (per quarterly membership meeting) should be built into the budget. Only through the ballot can the members hope to override the excessive assessing, spending, and rule-making of a volunteer layman board that goes astray from the members' wishes. It's our safety valve.
With the membership power to override the board, boards will be more responsive to what the members say to them. The board right now with the 3600 quorum is not afraid of being overruled by the members. As a result here are some things we can look forward to in the future:
1. $800 annual assessment,
2. $5,000 PIF,
3. changing the golf course covenants to allow condo development,
4. removal of snowbird voting rights,
5. unequal assessment for golf course property owners,
6. a theater,
and anything else they want...
The Sun City Formula Registry wants the people to be protected from such plans. Big projects should be approved of by the members. There should be equal obligations. The Articles of Incorporation guarantee it, but the board is not honoring the contract. They don't obey the planned communities act but take the planned communities property tax exemption.
Somebody has to do something about this. We cannot just sit by and let it happen without opposition.Attachment: Gelsinger_0107_AmericanAngel.jpg (Downloaded 149 times)
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Say What
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I agree with a lot of what Bill has written. There is a problem in our society that has developed over recent years. That problem, I believe, is that there are a growing number of citizens everywhere that refuse to trust government, associations, or corporations. Often times this is counter productive and occasionally destructive to the organization and community.
I for one, do not want that to happen here in Sun City!
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Bill Pearson
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Actually Say What, i quite agree with JEH had to say. There are obviously countless numbers of folks living in Sun City who elect not to get elected. In many cases they are fine with what the board does and the direction we are headed. When in fact they come out of the shadows and begin speaking out, the board has more than a passing obligation to listen to them and then make a vote that has been predetermined.
Case in point was the quorum issue. There were residents from across Sun City speaking out against it. It was silliness and we told them so en masse. Not a single board member voted against the change.
The next issue was muddier. Raising the preservation fee was a necessity based on paying for phase 2 at Fairway. Clearly they had decided to freeze the increase for the yearly property assessment (that was a really good thing), and the only place added revenue could come from was the preservation fees. Theoretically that makes sense in that the new owners are the ones who will benefit most from the improved facilities (over the long haul).
The other issue that caused a flap, guns on Rec Center property was even more contentious. In the end i suspect the board felt they acted in the greater good theory. Having clear, concise policies is better than having policies with asterisks attached to them. We could have votes on all these issues but voting is terribly expensive and if everything is simply a referendum, why have elected board members?
Here's the simple facts: Sun City has survived and flourished for 50 years. There is still no better bargain in the country for seniors. We have the most amenities at the lowest cost. We have a huge volunteer base and without it, Sun City would erode and become something far less than it was intended to be. No one i know of wants that to happen.
The board needs to listen to what members have to say. They need to weigh what is said and by whom. They need to act accordingly based on comments and what makes sense. JEH is spot on, transparency in their actions and decisions will give them more credibility than anything else they can do. Threats to have them all removed (especially when we can barely get candidates now), is ludicrous on its face. We need appreciate what they do and speak out when we disagree, we need take ownership in our community. That is how it has worked for 50 years.
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Say What
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Boy, now that makes everything clear!
Hundreds and hundreds must agree.Last edited on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 02:58 am by Say What
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31st, 2010 07:41 pm |
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JEH_in_SC
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Rfolland stated especially well in his last paragraph a significant problem facing Sun City... specifically, newer residents expect/want amenities, governing rules, etc. to be state-of-the-art and many older residents feel threatened by the change. In addition, I agree with his comments on minority/extreme viewpoints are often valid... the squeaky wheel always draws the most attention but does not necessarily represent majority opinion.
But for me, there is a big difference between the planning and operational guidance the board provides to RCSC and their ability to change bylaws and board policies without member agreement. Thus, in deference to rfolland's post, I don't see restricting the board's autonomy in some areas as an elimination of the need/usefulness of a board of directors.
My personal yardstick, as rfolland calls it, believes the board is chartered to represent the best interests of the majority of the membership in governing RCSC. Perhaps the board's yardstick see's it differently? Perhaps their yardstick tells them their job is to do what they see as best for the RCSC and it's up to the members to just live with it.
Which is it?
Honestly, it's a mystery to me how the board could ever believe they know what the membership feels, how they think, what they want. Has the board ever asked you or anyone you know? Ok, maybe it's just me... I've never been asked. But I have never seen/heard of the board polling/surveying for the membership's opinion. In an attempt to become involved... to get my opinion heard... I've attended many member meetings and member-exchange meetings and, I have to say, my overwhelming impression is that the board is just going through the motion of listening in many cases.
For example, all of the meetings during the recent "quorum increase" motion experienced an overwhelming expression by members against the motion. The board stated "it's state law", but they never divulged any details or specifics as to what law or why it was felt RCSC was in violation. Why the secrecy and hesitancy to share information. Lack of transparency typically leads to suspicion that there's a different agenda being served, even when it's not. Had the board explained details which made sense I believe members would have accepted the quorum motion even if they didn't like it. Instead, as it stands now, it's a huge bone of contention which could potentially tear our community apart. It's little wonder to me why annereport and others are so critical of this bylaw change... a change which represents a 3400%+ increase in the number of members needed for a quorum. A change which makes a quorum of 3500+ impossible to assemble in a Sun City venue. A change which, some believe, violates state law ARS 10-11023 because it increased the quorum without a member vote.
I often hear the arguments that anything you don't like should be solved by "not re-electing board" or the ever-present "you should run for the board if you don't like how things are run". Those attitudes are non-sequitur to me. Not everyone has the temperament, time, and fortitude to be a board member... but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have a voice, or that they don't care. And not being re-elected doesn't undo bylaw/policy changes already made. The fact that people are indifferent (ie, they aren't flocking to meetings to voice their opinion, they're not voting in elections, nor running for the board, etc.) in no way indicates that they are in agreement with the way things are being done. All indifference means is those people have chosen to not share their opinions and feelings... we in fact don't know what those people are thinking.
I've heard hundreds of residents express negatives... "the board does whatever it wants"... "there's no use even getting involved"... "it's a waste of time"... "either live with it or move". So why aren't these people more "involved"? Simple... they have given up trying in whatever way they can... but they certainly are NOT ok with what's happening. I've heard hundreds express that the RCSC is well run, and they're uninvolved as well. And I know hundreds who hardly know what planet they're on, let alone what goes on at the RCSC. We're all affected... we all have rules enforced on us, we have assessments we must pay, etc. It should bother us ALL that we don't really have a clue what opinions the majority of our members have?
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